by Satyaraja Dasa
An Interview with Professor E. Burke Rochford
Satyaraja Dasa: Let me read you something that was written by a sociologist named Stuart Wright: “Commitment to a movement characterized by charismatic leadership emerges out of an investment of ‘trust’ made by members. One problem all world-transforming movements face is that followers need to be convinced that movement leaders are legitimate embodiments or representatives of moral truths and, therefore, worthy of their sacrifice and dedication. If, however, invested loyalty or trust is betrayed through actions that are perceived as morally inconsistent with espoused ideals or goals, the likelihood of defection is increased.”
This interests me and dictates, perhaps, the next course of our discussion. ISKCON thrived under Prabhupada’s guidance and personal example. Soon after his departure, things started to get difficult, to say the least. It seems that the onus really is on the current leaders of ISKCON to set high examples…
Professor Rochford: It has to be there in any movement, and doubly in this one, if for no other reason than the overwhelming centrality of the guru/disciple relationship. So all senior devotees have an obligation to set a high standard, but this obligation is especially poignant for those who are set up as gurus—they must embody the ideals, or else people will simply leave the movement.
There is, of course, the phenomenon of seeing Krishna consciousness as larger than the institution and even larger than the relationship with one’s own guru. In that case devotees who have problem-gurus, shall we say, will stay within the fold of Krishna consciousness. They will go on with their practices and take recourse in Prabhupada and his teachings, eventually taking shelter, perhaps, of one of Prabhupada’s more exemplary disciples. But such things are rare, and the more common case scenario is that a disenchanted disciple will simply leave the movement to pursue a more materialistic life.
In ISKCON today, though, there is a sense of connection with Srila Prabhupada and, through him, the whole Gaudiya tradition. So disenchanted devotees would do well to nurture this relationship in addition to the relationship with his or her individual guru, or through his or her guru. That way, if there is some betrayal of trust—if the guru falls away from the movement—the disciple still has Prabhupada, whose instruction is the embodiment of the entire philosophy, and the entire process of Krishna consciousness.
Satyaraja Dasa: Absolutely. Traditionally, this is called acharya-vartma—everyone is linked to the pure representative of Krishna, to the founder of a particular lineage. In our case, Prabhupada is the founder-acharya of ISKCON—so everyone in the institution should have a direct relationship with him. This is not to say that one is not linked through one’s guru, or that one does not honor one’s guru, but the acharya is of central importance to everyone in the institution. The relationship with one’s guru is dependent upon the guru’s relationship with Prabhupada. This is parampara. This is the way a Vaishnava lineage works. In this way there is a common interest for all disciples and, as we’ve discussed, this enables an institution to grow and prosper.
Professor Rochford: This is the point. I know there’s some controversy about ritvik and diksha, and things of that sort. That’s not what I’m talking about here. I’m talking about a very pragmatic connection. It’s real. No matter who one’s initiating guru is, an ISKCON devotee is distinctly related to Prabhupada—a Prabhupada follower.
Satyaraja Dasa: We call it a “Prabhupadanuga”!
Professor Rochford: Right. And while we’re talking about the importance of leadership, I want to say that I think there is some trouble in ISKCON today. Leaders are not what they once were. Maybe it’s because they are feeling Prabhupada’s absence, I don’t know.
Satyaraja Dasa: Well, it really varies. There’s strong leadership in some parts of the movement…
Professor Rochford: Oh, I’m generalizing, without doubt. I’m speaking mainly about the movement in America. That was the subject of my dissertation and the area in which I’ve conducted the most elaborate amount of research. But, no, I’m aware of the success, especially in parts of India, the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe. It’s phenomenal. Since Prabhupada’s departure, the movement has tripled in those places. And it continues to grow in South America, too. But there is clearly a problem in America. The devotees there, by and large, are not as inspired as they once were.
There are a lot of reasons for this. One reason may simply be a reflection of age. Devotees are older, with families, and their concerns are shifting. In some ways, their commitment to Krishna consciousness may be deeper than ever before. But externally, they don’t appear to have the zealousness of bygone days… Even the people who are joining the movement today, though, do not seem to have the same spirit as the devotees I met when I first started studying ISKCON.
Satyaraja Dasa: Well, there is the straight-edge phenomenon, you know. I told J. Stillson Judah that kids today are very different… they join the movement because it gives theological legitimization to practices they already hold dear. For example, straight-edge kids are mostly celibate, they avoid intoxication, and they are determined vegetarians. Naturally, Krishna consciousness is appealing to them… more and more of these kids are joining the movement.
Professor Rochford: There’s a good clientele out there. But I don’t think the devotees are responding as quickly as they should… This is definitely the case in America. I used to be able to ask my students, ‘How many of you have had a face-to-face encounter with a Hare Krishna?’ Practically all hands would rise—every student had a story to tell. Over the years, however, this has happened less and less… Book distribution is down, Harinama is down.
Now, part of this has to do with the economic situation, age, leadership etc., as we already discussed. But other factors were in play even before Prabhupada departed. Book distribution and other things started to decline a couple of years prior to that. And I think the end of the sixties and early seventies—with its hippiedom, exotic Indian religion, incense, etc.—was one of the factors. Still, things started to deteriorate even before Prabhupada left. It’s interesting, isn’t it? The days of annually doubling book distribution scores and the millions of books sold started to taper off by 1976.
Satyaraja Dasa: Of course, instead of solving the problems these things exacerbated the situation, and devotees were perceived as entrepreneurs—just out to make a buck. Even for the devotees who were honest and relatively straightforward, it started to look bad. ‘Devotees as Santa Claus? Just see how deceptive these devotees are!’ But the Santa Claus thing started in good spirit… And Prabhupada supported it! Unfortunately, it was eventually abused by opportunistic devotees…
Professor Rochford: Exactly. In a sense, it couldn’t have been worse. The short-term gain was not worth the long-term consequences… And then with the anti-cult movement and the Robin George Case, the defection of New Vrindavan, bad or bogus gurus, bad or bogus media—Americans, by and large, came to mistrust the devotees.
The anti-cult movement became a viable force in America… shaping public opinion. The press obviously helped them… people were already gaining a sense of distrust and even began to think that the movement was dangerous.
Satyaraja Dasa: In fact, this was one of Srila Prabhupada’s plans. He wanted to popularize Krishna consciousness in the West because people in other parts of the world generally try to emulate the things they see going on here. He thought that Indians would get more serious about Vaishnava spirituality if they saw Westerners taking it seriously. Which is exactly what happened.
Professor Rochford: The Indians came to the devotees’ rescue: ‘Oh, when you attack ISKCON, you’re attacking Hinduism.’ And the devotees, for their part, established Vaishnava temples and explained Vedic texts and culture with renewed enthusiasm.
Satyaraja Dasa: Most Indians who consider Krishna consciousness their religion live outside the temple, have jobs, family. So they provide an example of how to pursue Krishna consciousness in the world which… is becoming more and more a part of the ISKCON lifestyle.
Professor Rochford: Precisely. If ISKCON devotees—especially the householders—follow the lead of the well-established Indian members, it can decrease, if not put an end to, ISKCON’s economic problems.
Satyaraja Dasa: I think the problem stemmed from this: most Hindus did not want a twenty-year-old American telling them about something they deemed to be their own religion. But over the course of time, I think the Hindus began to see that devotees did know more about the tradition… or, at the very least, they seemed more committed to it and won Hindu acceptance because of that.
Professor Rochford: But let’s consider a potential problem. As East-Indians become more involved in ISKCON, what is the danger that Prabhupada’s movement might become another ethnic church?… I would trust that it’s not likely.
Satyaraja Dasa: I don’t think it’s likely to be a problem. The leadership of the movement is very cautious about this… only time will tell.
Professor Rochford: Indeed. But perhaps a more immediate thing to deal with… is the ongoing tension between purist and accommodationist factions in ISKCON.
The movement needs to recognize that both these points of view are valid and have a place in Krishna consciousness… Every devotee periodically drifts from one of these worldviews into the other. The future of ISKCON rests on exactly how the institution, as a whole, finds a balance.
E. Burke Rochford, Jr. is Professor Emeritus of Sociology and Religion at Middlebury College, where he taught from 1986 to 2017. He is widely recognized for his pioneering research on the Hare Krishna movement, particularly focusing on its development in the West, its gurukula (school) system, and its social and cultural integration. He is the author of Hare Krishna in America (Rutgers University Press, 1985) and numerous scholarly articles that examine the challenges and transformations within ISKCON over the decades.
Satyaraja Dasa (Steven J. Rosen) is an initiated disciple of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. He is the founding editor of the Journal of Vaishnava Studies, an academic publication highly regarded in the field of Hindu and Vaishnava scholarship, and serves as associate editor of Back to Godhead, ISKCON’s official magazine. Rosen has authored over 30 books on Vaishnavism and Hindu spirituality, including Essential Hinduism (2006), Black Lotus: The Spiritual Journey of an Urban Mystic (2007), and Krishna’s Other Song: A New Look at the Uddhava Gita (2010). He has published with leading Indian academic presses such as Firma KLM, Munshiram Manoharlal, and Motilal Banarsidass. His work continues to bridge devotional practice and academic discourse.